[OFFICIAL] European Vanguard Open-Tournament [FINISHED]

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Re: [OFFICIAL] European Vanguard Open-Tournament | Reg. Open

Postby Khally » Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:33 am

Holy crap, now that's a big wall of text!

I will read all of that, apologies if I take a bit to reply to everything.
Khally
 

 

Re: [OFFICIAL] European Vanguard Open-Tournament | Reg. Open

Postby Khally » Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:59 am

Tethys wrote:First of all I'd like to thank you for putting in the time and effort to get your tournament even this far. From what I can tell from your description of your tournament's proposed details it appears to be rather well thought out and devised. So thank you very much! I'm sure it took a lot of planning and brainstorming, etc.


Thank you for the recognition, I felt like this is a matter in which the community can certainly move forward in, hence why I decided to organize this.

Will there be a single host who will act as host for every single game throughout the tournament's duration? Or will there be several hosts? If there are several hosts, how similar is the quality of each host's network server? That is, how close are the different hosts located to one another, and are there any significant differences in the quality of their network parameters?


I will be the sole host of the tournament. My reasoning was, I was starting an event for the community with virtually no support to begin with and no guarantees it would actually be well-received. I needed to make absolutely sure there were no problems regarding hosting, so I wasn't planning on letting that responsibility fall on the shoulders of someone I do not know. Regarding the quality of my network. I've been hosting ever since I joined the community. The connection is stable and I've hosted up to 18 people with little problems. People in the west coast of the USA with a regular connection will have pings always under 200ms.

This is something to be concerned about because if, for instance, we're talking about pulling off high-risk maneuvers in the Clocked event, then even a difference of 30ms or 40ms latency can spell the difference between (i) successfully pulling off that maneuver flawlessly and (ii) narrowly failing to pull off that maneuver by a hair's breadth and subsequently dying.
There can also be considerable differences in FPS/camera shift quality for different people on different servers, especially when there's a significant distance between the guest and the host.

Having said all this, I fully understand that your tournament is clearly advertised as a European tournament, and so the fact that many people will have latency and FPS issues shouldn't be a surprise. But simply given the fact that it appears that a very large proportion of the competitors so far appear to not be from Europe, I would suggest that the host issue might be something worth trying to find an effective solution to.


You are absolutely right and I have been struggling with the same issue in my head. But like you said, it was clearly decided this would be an European tournament. At the moment, I believe I won't be adding another host, for two main reasons. One of which would be to change the terms in which people signed in for. And the second would be the advertising issue. It's very hard for me to suddenly make it into an EU/NA tournament, out of the blue. Having said that, I'm sure there will be more events in the future and with better logistics and organization. Remember, this started with my own will to make an organized event and it will actually be the first event in the AoTTG community. Take it as a Beta for new and improved tournaments in the near future!

One suggestion might be - and I'm surprised that nobody appears to have raised this as of yet - to allow each player (for the solo competition, at the very least) to create their own server, and to invite some representative of the Tournament to join said server in order to view the match and ensure that all regulations, etc, are followed. This would allow each player in the Solo category to perform at their very best, and this would of course make for much better spectating. There really is a very huge difference between an expert player playing with 0ms latency and that same expert player playing with 150+ ms latency; you can tell simply by observing the maneuvers they attempt and how cleanly they pull them off. If the organisers of the tournament desire their competition's results to carry any sense of legitimacy or validity then it's going to be crucial that there aren't differences of 100-200+ ms latency between certain competitors.


That is a really valid point, which I had considered myself. But the problems are the following:
1 - Not everyone can host a server properly. Either they don't have the knowledge to do it, nor the connection, but a very large chunk of the community would be excluded.
2 - We cannot possibly rely on the hosting capabilities of candidates. We must be sure the connection is stable and that the timing is regulated by us.
3 - It's easily exploitable. A member could disconnect on purpose if doing badly and blame it on the connection, demanding a retry. Along with similar variations of the issue.

Due to the reasons pointed out above, I decided to exclude that possibility.

Another thing that may be potentially concerning is that somewhere in this thread it was stated that there may be 3-4 spectators per game? For a number of people, being in a game that's hosted thousands of kilometres away, with hundreds of milliseconds of latency, having even two other people in the game is going to significantly increase the chance of desynchronisation. And I would assume that if a player desync's halfway through their game, that they aren't going to be afforded an opportunity to retry (because, for instance, you will have no way of knowing whether they in fact deliberately left the game). And so for this reason I would strongly suggest that each game be regulated by just a single Tournament official. To do otherwise will potentially create issues.


That has been scrapped. Currently, we have decided upon myself as host and Empath for streaming. No other participants can be present during the events.

I'm also interested as to how you plan to time the Clocked events?
Simply setting a time when the game is created, and working down from that obviously is not going to work, as there will be huge variance in the amount of time it takes a player to actually get into the game. Are you simply going to use a stopwatch or a clock timer? Or will you have some sort of overlayed digital clock running on your computer while observing each competitor? How will you signify the beginning of each event? Perhaps you'll use a flare? But if you use a flare, then that means that the person observing the competition must necessarily be alive. And if that observer is alive, then she/he will potentially alter the playing field for the competitor by attracting titans in various directions. This means that it's probably going to be a good idea to have the observer suicide as soon as possible so that she/he does not present a disturbance to the game.


The solution we have come up with for this problem is to promptly commit suicide right after the hosting begins. And then the actual timer for the run would begin when the clock hit 15 seconds. Therefore minimizing the impact of the two officers present in-game.

However, how will you ensure that the first wave of titans is equally distributed throughout the forest for each competitor, from game to game to game? If the competitor's time does not start immediately upon game creation (because it may take one player 10 seconds to get in, and another 40 seconds) how do we ensure that the layout of the first wave is fair from one game to the next? If one game doesn't start for 40 seconds and another doesn't start for 100 minutes, then it's likely that the titans will be much more closely bunched for the game that took an extra minute to begin, and this is a very distinct advantage. Is there a standard starting position that you will insist each player begin their match from? Concerns of this sort of nature are another reason why having just a single observer is going to be a better idea than having multiple observers; the fewer observers you have in each game, the fewer potential extraneous variables there are that may disrupt a player's game.


Unfortunately, there will be variables. Just as the spawning locations of the titans are random, so are their sizes and their nature. Therefore, the observer's impact will be small in comparison. But it's a necessary randomness, we just can't avoid it, just minimize it.


But yeah, just a few concerns. And I'd really like to make clear that I'm not trying to be harsh simply for the sake of being harsh, and I really admire the fact that somebody's been willing to take the time to put this together. But I just thought it necessary in the sake of fairness to bring up several of these issues that may potentially skewer results in one direction or another.


And I really appreciate the time you took to put all these issues into words. I was actually expecting more people to voice their concerns sooner, but unfortunately almost no-one did. I specifically asked for feedback on the original post :). I hope my replies answer your questions the way you wanted them to.

My primary concern is actually the hosting issue. I think that it really would be the best for the success of the tournament to allow the Solo events to be hosted by each individual competitor in order to eliminate lag issues; otherwise there's just way too much potential variance in the conditions that each player will be competing under.


As I've mentioned before, think of this tournament as a Beta for bigger and better :D the reasons for this have been explained above :)
Khally
 

Re: UPDATE - Dec 10th, 2013

Postby Liduso » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:00 am

Khally wrote:
- Solo Events (except HighScore): December 15th - 11PM GMT+0
- Squad Events & Solo HighScore: December 16th - 10PM GMT+0
- Head-to-Head: December 17th - 10PM GMT+0



Crap. I might not be able to go. If I'm not there, remember me fondly or mention me in the livestream since I might be watching but unable to play. :c
Liduso
 

Re: UPDATE - Dec 10th, 2013

Postby Khally » Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:08 am

Liduso wrote:
Khally wrote:
- Solo Events (except HighScore): December 15th - 11PM GMT+0
- Squad Events & Solo HighScore: December 16th - 10PM GMT+0
- Head-to-Head: December 17th - 10PM GMT+0



Crap. I might not be able to go. If I'm not there, remember me fondly or mention me in the livestream since I might be watching but unable to play. :c


The session will last for roughly 3 hours. If you can make it later, just let us know :)
Khally
 

Re: [OFFICIAL] European Vanguard Open-Tournament | Reg. Open

Postby TataBlitz » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:30 pm

quick question, as you can see from my sig, my IGN and forum name is different, for the username part of the app, I should use my forum name correct and for the tourney use my forum name right? Or can I use any name I want for the IGN?

I'll edit my post later for an official app since I'm waiting for the response of my 4th squad mate.
TataBlitz
 

Re: [OFFICIAL] European Vanguard Open-Tournament | Reg. Open

Postby Khally » Thu Dec 12, 2013 9:49 pm

Tatakae wrote:quick question, as you can see from my sig, my IGN and forum name is different, for the username part of the app, I should use my forum name correct and for the tourney use my forum name right? Or can I use any name I want for the IGN?

I'll edit my post later for an official app since I'm waiting for the response of my 4th squad mate.


I would appreciate it if you could keep your forum name while participating.
Khally
 

Re: [OFFICIAL] European Vanguard Open-Tournament | Reg. Open

Postby TataBlitz » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:11 pm

alright then, also if I do apply as it depends on my 4th teammate's response, I'm just going to tell you now that I cannot make the beginning as I have finals that day until 10:30PM GMT and it will take me some time to get home, so probably will not be here until 11:30PM GMT roughly is that alright?
TataBlitz
 

Re: [OFFICIAL] European Vanguard Open-Tournament | Reg. Open

Postby Khally » Thu Dec 12, 2013 10:19 pm

Tatakae wrote:alright then, also if I do apply as it depends on my 4th teammate's response, I'm just going to tell you now that I cannot make the beginning as I have finals that day until 10:30PM GMT and it will take me some time to get home, so probably will not be here until 11:30PM GMT roughly is that alright?


That's probably alright, since you've let me know before-hand :)
Khally
 

Re: [OFFICIAL] European Vanguard Open-Tournament | Reg. Open

Postby Tethys » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:16 am

Khally, thank you for your thorough response.
I'm not going to further contest anything as I feel that I've ceded any right to that by deciding to post only at the very last minute!

I have a question regarding my potential participation in the tournament though.
Will two-person teams be accepted? Or must every team necessarily consist of four people? I would like to enter a two-person team for the Squad Survival (H) event.
Tethys
 

Re: [OFFICIAL] European Vanguard Open-Tournament | Reg. Open

Postby Khally » Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:33 am

Tethys wrote:Khally, thank you for your thorough response.
I'm not going to further contest anything as I feel that I've ceded any right to that by deciding to post only at the very last minute!

I have a question regarding my potential participation in the tournament though.
Will two-person teams be accepted? Or must every team necessarily consist of four people? I would like to enter a two-person team for the Squad Survival (H) event.


No problem :) and feel free to present your concerns, I can try to address them the best way possible, either here or via PM :)

And yes, 4 people are the maximum size. I will allow two-person teams, but I'd say you're at a disadvantage. There are, at the moment, two people still looking for a squad. Would you possibly consider them joining yours?
Khally
 

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