New Version Feedback

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Re: New Version Feedback

Postby Levvuny » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:12 pm

Fuginotory wrote:Really Accel? I don't know what your criteria for OP is, but blinding is not OP.

It usually gets you a 3-6 second gap where the titans can't hurt you, and you can easily go behind them and hit them in the nape, so it is pretty OP, but I still love it :3
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Re: New Version Feedback

Postby Annie Leonhardt » Tue Nov 19, 2013 5:22 pm

LeviTheHappyBunny wrote:
Fuginotory wrote:Really Accel? I don't know what your criteria for OP is, but blinding is not OP.

It usually gets you a 3-6 second gap where the titans can't hurt you, and you can easily go behind them and hit them in the nape, so it is pretty OP, but I still love it :3


It's OP only for the little ones, with big eyes, but at the bigger ones they have small eyes and you mostly end up eaten.
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Re: New Version Feedback

Postby Fuginotory » Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:06 pm

Compared to the canon which should leave them blind for a full minute, I think this is a reasonable compromise. I don't think something is OP unless it is omnipotent, or in the very least gives you a major advantage for nearly no risk, and that is not the case. I can see how this can be seen as OP for some people, but in SP it really only works for the small titans. I think Accel thinks it's OP because it cancels any other titan action, and forces them into the Blinded state, but that's exactly why I like it.

Now then, I think I'll stop with the opinions, because I believe Terramort said they made this tread to be strictly for feedback, not another opinion discussion. We can perhaps continue this elsewhere?
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Re: New Version Feedback

Postby Accelevi » Wed Nov 20, 2013 2:26 am

Yes, I concede on the eye-point. It's not a major thing anyways.
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Re: New Version Feedback

Postby CriticalBlinking » Wed Nov 20, 2013 7:27 am

Just general feedback, I have no experience with previous versions:

1) Titan attack hitboxes. These are unforgivingly large; I understand it's to make up for the currently underwhelming AI, but they should at least seem fair (I'm pretty sure eyeballs can't bite me no matter how sharp they look).

Just personal opinions of how AI could be improved:
Spoiler:
I like to think of fighting game mechanics in any game involving combat since good ones allow for amazing complexity and high-level play.

Titan's option now: use huge hitbox move with moderate startup/recovery time to kill player at position x.
Desired Titan's options: fast moves to punish players lingering near it's face/chest (e.g. fast 6 frame bite with mouth-sized hitbox and head movement to make up for it); slow, arcing moves with lots of active frames but lots of recovery that trigger from 3DMG hooks on Titan body (e.g. holding out and sweeping arm to catch frontal approaching pendulum from 60-70, hitbox at hand only; double arm grab to catch overhead attempt); a confused turn (until it sees someone or reaches 180) if character moves behind Titan out of view without using Titan as a hooking point. Right now I like fighting titans from the front and on the ground. That is supposed to be suicide. Equator cut should NOT work from the front. Hooking a Titan directly should NOT be a recommended maneuver.

When or if player stun is introduced then the Titans should be given slow, direct reaching grabs for 'stylish' kills like the anime (Titan sloooowly reaches for Mikasa). When pathing is introduced, make the roaming titans follow the roads in a semi-regular manner like a shopping customer, but have them stop and look side to side for humans every so often. I think that would be more realistic than a titan randomly turning every 3 seconds. Finally a script to allow for hiding/losing the titan by line of sight over time so they go back to roaming would be sweet, but obviously low priority for AI. Improve that frontal titan defense!

2a) Titan jump height. Let's think about this from the anime's point of view: everyone favors fighting titans with buildings and other similarly tall, grapple-able structures, abnormal or not (but especially for abnormals/titan-shifters). What the jumping does is just scare people from using 3DMG to get in the air above head level because the Titans can pretty much jump up to the skybox on Old_Level 1 with stunning accuracy (and eyeball biting power). The draw behind this game, at least for me, is the fact that it has 3DMG with nice physics, and to make people utilize it less defeats the purpose of the game. I'd rather the titans have a 90-110 distance trigger to do a long jump bite with short startup delay and/or a head trigger to turn their head up and quickly snap up anyone who's stayed up there too long.

2b) Also if they're jumping and bite me, why do I not get swallowed? I just fall apart -_-

3) Old_Map 2 AKA City map. Rooftops need chimneys/those attic windows! They're there in the anime, it's 2-3 art assets that you can just repeatedly stick on the buildings, and it would improve 3DMG between rooftops.

4a) Character attack - one angle isn't enough. I know it'll decrease Mikasa's uniqueness but I'm pretty sure the trainees all know how to do a downward angle slash after all their training. The camera can tilt, but if characters could do limited tilting based on your cursor it would a) look better b) allow us to tilt our attacks to sink into the nape more accurately, whether it's crawlers, tired abnormals, or titans during an attack.

4b) Ground version of the slash - it moves your character and cancels itself if you go airborne which is almost every time you try to swing while 'standing' on the titan's nape. Worse, if you hold slash and touch the ground you end up slashing (i.e. if I graze the titan's back it counts as 'grounded' and wastes the slash I was saving for 0.5s later). I'd prefer if attack was just one thing that was for ground and air - hold attack, you hold the slash. Release attack, you slash.

5) Limited camera panning up/down. This has been said before by many people and seems to be pretty simple to fix.

6) Blinding. I didn't know this was just added but it's a nice feature. Even though Accelevi feels blinding is OP, it's a precise maneuver and does cause the titan to go wild, something I don't recall seeing in the anime. However, I'd like to have it more anime-like once Titan AI improves. I mean Levi himself had enough time to land on the head, reload, jump up, and get a nice slash on a blinded Titan. Therefore I'd advocate for removing the followup slap, make the eye hitboxes smaller, and make it separate for each eye so you can blind each eye for 5s at a time. A one eyed Titan will just have reduced reaction time for moves and a double blinded titan will simply do that stun animation for however long it takes to regenerate one eye (i.e. so max stun is 5s if you hit both at once).
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Re: New Version Feedback

Postby Accelevi » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:45 am

1 seems a great idea, and I like the attacks you have set up for each scenario. However, I don't think Titans would generally notice hooks in them, unless they notice a human. I might be completely wrong.
2a is agreed upon, but abnormals in canon can jump pretty high, almost up to the top of the church I'd guess perhaps for large ones, and to maybe mid-area for smaller ones.
2b is just probably not detailed out.
3 can come later (it's aesthetics).
4a, wouldn't tilting push you off balance unless you're going really fast/are professional with the 3DMG?
4b, for slash, it could be fixed, but if you are holding your arms back to slash, wouldn't colliding into it hurt/reduce effectiveness of your cut -> shallower wound -> perhaps not killing Titan?
5, as in the camera effect?
6, I get what you mean, and what you say seems good, but slashing sideways wouldn't really do much. It would have to be more of a spin/pierce type of attack, and no character really has it. Levi's Levicopter is closest, but that's sideways for now, rather than like a drill. Also, Levi throwing the blades was most likely an advanced technique, getting enough energy to be able to blind the Titan for a while in the first place. Some Titans (randomly decided each time it's blinded) should just cover its eyes and sort of wriggle around, but others should go like rage, and try to destroy whatever's around them, making it risky to do so. And 5s is a bit long. Current time is pretty good. If it can still see with one eye, maybe slightly inaccurate attacks if X/Y/Z-axis detail stuff comes (swinging hand over head, smashing to the side, etc).
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Re: New Version Feedback

Postby CriticalBlinking » Thu Nov 21, 2013 7:22 am

Accelevi wrote:4a, wouldn't tilting push you off balance unless you're going really fast/are professional with the 3DMG?
4b, for slash, it could be fixed, but if you are holding your arms back to slash, wouldn't colliding into it hurt/reduce effectiveness of your cut -> shallower wound -> perhaps not killing Titan?
5, as in the camera effect?
6, I get what you mean, and what you say seems good, but slashing sideways wouldn't really do much. It would have to be more of a spin/pierce type of attack, and no character really has it. Levi's Levicopter is closest, but that's sideways for now, rather than like a drill. Also, Levi throwing the blades was most likely an advanced technique, getting enough energy to be able to blind the Titan for a while in the first place. Some Titans (randomly decided each time it's blinded) should just cover its eyes and sort of wriggle around, but others should go like rage, and try to destroy whatever's around them, making it risky to do so. And 5s is a bit long. Current time is pretty good. If it can still see with one eye, maybe slightly inaccurate attacks if X/Y/Z-axis detail stuff comes (swinging hand over head, smashing to the side, etc).


4a Ah yeah, I forgot most of the people aren't skilled enough to tilt during 3DMG...but then again, look at Mikasa's crazy side-ways 3DMG usage! Honestly I'd just like to be able to tilt downwards (like Eren in the anime's first opening when he slashes the titan) to give me at least a 30 degree angle down slash against crawler necks; all other tilts unnecessary.
4b True, but this doesn't happen if I touch a building while holding a slash, so I'm guessing it's not an intended mechanic. I did testing and the only reason the slash occurs is because when I touch the back it's considered 'grounded' for a moment. Overall this is super low priority since I rarely hold slash for long time (and it's not a good tactic), but I like it when screwing around to look stylish like in the anime. And of course the ground slash is still pretty useless...why does it cancel if I go airborne?

5 Sorry, I mean most people want to be able to pan the camera all the way looking up or straight down just for some better 3DMG maneuvers. This + tilt downward slash = much more dead crawlers.

6 Well actually I don't use blinding much so I don't have good feedback on it. It's a nice touch though when I miss a slash and save myself!
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Re: New Version Feedback

Postby Accelevi » Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:59 pm

Yeah, that clears up the camera thing.
I'm not sure why there's a restriction on up/down.
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Re: New Version Feedback

Postby Fuginotory » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:23 pm

More on the feedback.
Titans/Jump Bite: I've been playing a lot of Abnormal lately and I couldn't help but notice that the jump bite is something they do as soon as you're above the nape, not only that, but they are able to accurately target a character coming up behind them, or flying behind them, and jump to get that character unless you pull a last second change of direction, which doesn't always work. Their targeting ability aside, they seem to also be able to cancel the jump at any time, and it has no CD, meaning that if they can't get you, but you are high enough, they can just repeatedly do small rabbit jumps until they get a shot. The crawlers have a little head bouncing trick where they keep bumping me with their head until they manage to throw me high enough for a bite, or until I try to use the hooks and end up crushed. Jumping needs a CD, and a good one, and possible the same physics used for the characters and Titan Eren, so their jump will be reasonable, and not the OP annihilator it currently is, this goes double for the crawlers, their ability to turn on a dime is bad enough, but with this thing one literally chased me in the air until he managed to land on top of me, and crush me, it was horrible. My personal opinion on this is that a jump bite should not be an active combat move, just a surprise attack, like if you fly too recklessly, and a titan spots you, but you don't spot it, it can jump and kill you in an instant, but I imagine this will require a lot of complex code, so I'll just say it, but expect nothing of it.

Character ability: The more I played, the more it felt like the crawlers were deliberately avoiding me whenever I want them to come my way, while the other titans were doing the exact opposite, deliberately turning my way every time, so when the normal titans or the runners swarm, the crawlers can supposedly randomly turn and see me, then kill me, or in the very least get me so occupied with escaping them without going too high, or too low, that something just body slams me, so an ability to just get the titans to turn toward you, not like Marco's aggro ability, one that just makes them look at you, would be really nice, I mean, how hard would it be for the character to just whistle in order to get a titan to look at them. This can even replace the Lock On button, which hasn't really done anything in the last 3-4 versions of the game anyway.
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Re: New Version Feedback

Postby Accelevi » Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:29 pm

I completely agree on the jumping attack, but they would probably all be able to jump at least around half the center building's height.
For the ignoring thing, it's really weird. Titans walk away from me, and even walking around them or staying perched on them doesn't trigger anything most of the time.
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