The Stifled Modding Community

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- Made by Feng, title edited by Accelevi

Re: The Stifled Modding Community

Postby merp » Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:47 am

reply to arise7
Arise7 wrote:1. Terramort/his guild are the only ones who have been banned for distributing modded clients. Which of course they should be since Feng never released the code.

2. No, a one time download profit would not even come close to the amount he makes from ads every time someone visits his site. Not to mention other people hosting his game on their sites without his permission or authorization.

3. Modding games create an extreme problem for multiplayer not support it. This can easily be seen on heavily modded games like Civilization 4/5. If someone contains a modded client they cannot play with other unless they have the other exact version. And this happens on games that aren't even patched. Imagine the results on a game that is updated about twice a month.

4. There is a reason that almost no developers with the exception of few implement modded stuff into official content. Because usually the new content is extremely inefficiently coded and can lead to larger problems with the games. This is probably one of the primary reasons Feng has decided not to release his code.

5. You take an extremely one sided stance on the issue. Despite saying your going to list pros and cons all you did was create a giant list of why you think modding would be a good idea without actually taking a full view of the issue.

2. that's why we're saying use both, not just one.
3. i've played plenty of modded servers with no problem, and if the modded server doesn't work for anybody that's the modder's fault.
4. nobody is saying feng has to put any mods in the game, we're just saying it could help him if someone makes a good mod.

someone should make an actual list of pros/cons. this thread is filled with bias from both sides (not excluding the mods), and each side is just listing the pros and not the cons.
@Arise7 locking a thread just because you disagree with it doesn't really seem fair :? this is the only thread that hasn't been locked/deleted where we can actually discuss this, and locking/deleting everything that mentions mods or online clients is just going to make people dislike the mods.
merp
 

 

Re: The Stifled Modding Community

Postby Pixis » Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:52 am

merp wrote:
reply to arise7
Arise7 wrote:1. Terramort/his guild are the only ones who have been banned for distributing modded clients. Which of course they should be since Feng never released the code.

2. No, a one time download profit would not even come close to the amount he makes from ads every time someone visits his site. Not to mention other people hosting his game on their sites without his permission or authorization.

3. Modding games create an extreme problem for multiplayer not support it. This can easily be seen on heavily modded games like Civilization 4/5. If someone contains a modded client they cannot play with other unless they have the other exact version. And this happens on games that aren't even patched. Imagine the results on a game that is updated about twice a month.

4. There is a reason that almost no developers with the exception of few implement modded stuff into official content. Because usually the new content is extremely inefficiently coded and can lead to larger problems with the games. This is probably one of the primary reasons Feng has decided not to release his code.

5. You take an extremely one sided stance on the issue. Despite saying your going to list pros and cons all you did was create a giant list of why you think modding would be a good idea without actually taking a full view of the issue.

2. that's why we're saying use both, not just one.
3. i've played plenty of modded servers with no problem, and if the modded server doesn't work for anybody that's the modder's fault.
4. nobody is saying feng has to put any mods in the game, we're just saying it could help him if someone makes a good mod.

someone should make an actual list of pros/cons. this thread is filled with bias from both sides (not excluding the mods), and each side is just listing the pros and not the cons.
@Arise7 locking a thread just because you disagree with it doesn't really seem fair :? this is the only thread that hasn't been locked/deleted where we can actually discuss this, and locking/deleting everything that mentions mods or online clients is just going to make people dislike the mods.


That's EXACTLY why I made the post merp. I've seen this discussion be kicked out of the forums time and time again, and it's high time we get a solid list of community opinions going. As I've said before, I will gladly add any cons to the post, as I have already done so with the ones listed in previous posts.
Pixis
 

Re: The Stifled Modding Community

Postby Arise7 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:04 am

Also yes this game does belong to Feng and is quite illegal to rehost it on any other site. While it's true that the creator of snk can at anytime shut the entire game down if he really felt like it, it doesn't take away the fact that Feng created the game from scratch. I think your confusing mods with actually games. If this game was just a mod of another game people could do whatever they want with it, but since it was a game actually created by him and not modded then no they have no right to modify it or spread it without his permission.
Arise7
 

Re: The Stifled Modding Community

Postby Pixis » Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:17 am

Arise7 wrote:Also yes this game does belong to Feng and is quite illegal to rehost it on any other site. While it's true that the creator of snk can at anytime shut the entire game down if he really felt like it, it doesn't take away the fact that Feng created the game from scratch. I think your confusing mods with actually games. If this game was just a mod of another game people could do whatever they want with it, but since it was a game actually created by him and not modded then no they have no right to modify it or spread it without his permission.


I don't believe that's the case. If he did, he'd have the rights reserved listed somewhere noticeable. If he actually owned rights to the game, he could prevent them from hosting it, but I'm relatively certain that it's impossible for him to own the rights without purchasing the license from funimation to use the title.

That's one of the dangers in putting your game out to the public without protected rights on it, it can be easily copied and stolen. In fact, there's websites that exist for the purpose of collecting other people's unlicensed games and turning a profit by hosting them.

The truth is that it's going to be modded inevitably as the population playing the game grows. More people will grow to love the game, and want to improve on it in ways that Feng is unwilling/incapable of doing, and they WILL create mods, and those who create the mods WILL distribute them. If not on these forums, then somewhere else. The internet cannot be fought against and won. It's been proven time and time again by companies who have tried to stifle the free spreading of their work, and ultimately failed. The companies that are becoming successful in the midst of all this are the ones who are openly accepting the fact that they can't have complete and utter control over their work once it hits the public's hands.
Pixis
 

Re: The Stifled Modding Community

Postby Nxt » Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:38 am

The following is a post from Terramort
Arise7 wrote:Regardless of how all of you feel, Feng made the game and therefore is his intellectual property. If he doesn't want people modding his game, don't mod it. It's very simple really.

Actually, Attack on Titan is the intellectual property of Hajime Isayama, the author. For Feng to say that the game is HIS and we must play HIS version of the game is, frankly, very hypocritical. He's lucky Hajime Isayama is much nicer about intellectual property, and doesn't tell Feng to stop because "it's my manga and I don't like other people helping/doing stuff with my ideas"

Ghosthunter wrote:Terramort had his moments.And he got off the hook many times while even the mods were disciplined,he wasn't .He wasn't just banned on a whim,we all discussed it.And if it were me i would have been even harsher.

Would you please proved some examples? I have always tried to respectful of the rules, even if I disagree. I would show you the post where I was defending another user getting banned for arguing while the instigating mod was not. I do believe it was you, actually, Ghosthunter. This does feel a bit like revenge. And would you explain why my ban should be harsher? Accelevi was clearly giving the OK for people to host modded games (again, I'd show you, but thread is conveniently deleted), so I was simply answering people's question as to where to find the mod. There was no discussion. There was no "please remove that Terramort." I recieved a message from "bope", a.k.a. flan (who is breaking the rules by making a dupe account, by the way) asking me to remove the link. I was in the process of editing away the link to be by PM request only when the ban happened - within a minute or two of me posting the original links.

Arise7 wrote:1. Terramort/his guild... ...5. You take an extremely one sided...

1. Then why aren't the others given permission by Accelevi banned? What kind of favouritism is this?

2. Download profits are far greater than ad-view profits.
But that is beside the point. Feng has no right whatsoever to make money off this game. If his version is better, than he is rewarded by people visiting his sight. If it's not - well, he should listen to the players. He didn't create Attack on Titan. He has no room to say "My way is the only way". What would you all do if the creators of the 3DS game come shut down AoTTG because it *supposedly* cut into the sales of the 3DS game?

3. Please show the game that's been ruined by mods. I can give you examples of games where mods have massively helped - Civilization, MineCraft, Sins of a Solar Empire, Total Annihilation, etc. etc. And yes, you have to have matching mods - which is just more incentive for the less savy to use the vanilla, online version.

4. Actually, developers quite often implement mods into their game. Pistons were originally mod for MC, as were horses. Sins of a Solar Empire added Titans (the spaceship kind) and other mods to their most recent sequel. Perhaps the code isn't exactly copy/pasted,
but the ideas are used.

5. You seem to think modding is a terrible idea, and the only reason I see is "Feng will lose money." Feng didn't make AoT. He has no RIGHT to the money. His RIGHT to the money is by creating a better game than the competition. Microsoft can't sue Google for having a superior browser any more than Feng has the right tell people they can't play other Titan games. While I do realize mods of a game are slightly different than 2 competing games, it's the same premise. If the mods weren't somehow improving the game, people wouldn't even want the mods - thus, creating mods should be encouraged to make the best game possible. If Feng was the author of SnK, this would be a different story. But he's not. He's using someone else's ideas, and getting mad when people do the same to him.

But I really think the base of all this is - the moderators don't like having their authority challenged. Which I tend to do when I feel it necessary, but I keep it respectful. I was removing the links as I was banned, planning to start a thread similar to this.

Finally, one last thing - Feng has had numerous people offer their work for him to use in the game, but he has refused. Players have asked for simple features over and over, but they have been refused. For him to get upset when someone modifies his game to include said features, when ALL he as to do is add them himself next update, is absolutely ridiculous.

I do apologize for having posted the links, but as I said before, I didn't realize at the time that mods were forbidden. Accelevi was granting permission for (apparently select) persons, and I was simply answering a 3 page thread of questions about the mod. Had Accelevi or another mod stepped in at any time to help clarify the issue, this wouldn't be happening. Instead people were being strung along as select individuals were getting to show off.

*disclaimer: I have only relayed this message from Terramort, and do not agree or disagree with any of the above statements unless I post otherwise



Nxt's personal opinion
expand
I'm a web developer/programmer and I do not support unauthorized modification and distribution.
Last edited by Nxt on Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
Nxt
 

Re: The Stifled Modding Community

Postby RamenRyu » Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:39 am

Spoiler:
Pixis wrote:
Arise7 wrote:Also yes this game does belong to Feng and is quite illegal to rehost it on any other site. While it's true that the creator of snk can at anytime shut the entire game down if he really felt like it, it doesn't take away the fact that Feng created the game from scratch. I think your confusing mods with actually games. If this game was just a mod of another game people could do whatever they want with it, but since it was a game actually created by him and not modded then no they have no right to modify it or spread it without his permission.


I don't believe that's the case. If he did, he'd have the rights reserved listed somewhere noticeable. If he actually owned rights to the game, he could prevent them from hosting it, but I'm relatively certain that it's impossible for him to own the rights without purchasing the license from funimation to use the title.

That's one of the dangers in putting your game out to the public without protected rights on it, it can be easily copied and stolen. In fact, there's websites that exist for the purpose of collecting other people's unlicensed games and turning a profit by hosting them.

The truth is that it's going to be modded inevitably as the population playing the game grows. More people will grow to love the game, and want to improve on it in ways that Feng is unwilling/incapable of doing, and they WILL create mods, and those who create the mods WILL distribute them. If not on these forums, then somewhere else. The internet cannot be fought against and won. It's been proven time and time again by companies who have tried to stifle the free spreading of their work, and ultimately failed. The companies that are becoming successful in the midst of all this are the ones who are openly accepting the fact that they can't have complete and utter control over their work once it hits the public's hands.

Somethings could go wrong depending on how the community handles modding, If it were to be open, hacks made specifically too boost and can make the scoreboard unreliable.
I can accept mods but the policies would have to be set. Mods will have to be made official by someone who can justify it to be harmless and beneficial. ascetic mods, sound file mods, and downloadable maps would be fine, game modes too but I just worry that it will end up like heavily modded games like COD 4.
RamenRyu
 

Re: The Stifled Modding Community

Postby bope » Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:45 am

Finally, one last thing - Feng has had numerous people offer their work for him to use in the game, but he has refused. Players have asked for simple features over and over, but they have been refused. For him to get upset when someone modifies his game to include said features, when ALL he as to do is add them himself next update, is absolutely ridiculous.

Feng has said it before he does not have a easy time reading the English forums, and to go though all the stuff would be to much for him, he is already extremely busy with other things at the moment. Also me and flan are different people thanks for getting so confused. #freeflan2014
bope
 

Re: The Stifled Modding Community

Postby Constipation » Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:51 am

Terramort, can you still not understand that using the mod is different from DISTRIBUTING IT. How many times does it have to be spelled out before you understand? You were even using it to get people to join your guild.

Also bope is not flan, stop spouting bullshit about things you have no idea about.
Constipation
 

Re: The Stifled Modding Community

Postby HallowedSaber » Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:54 am

guys stop the hate. i know you can all find more civil ways to talk.
HallowedSaber
 

Re: The Stifled Modding Community

Postby Accelevi » Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:05 am

This thread is full of bias, misinformation, and hate-arguments.
I really can't be bothered to deal with this entire s***storm, so I'll say one thing.
Those "select few" I "granted permission" to for the mods, in fact, are part of ATUG/the people who know about it/etc, or are related in one way or another, as far as I know. So they're pretty much part of it, as far as I know, although I could be wrong.
Feng gave permission for those people to use the mods as long as it's not overstepping bounds, cheating, etc, and as long as it's bound to those few. He doesn't want it spread on the three major platforms. (Tieba/FB group/This forum)
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