Feng's Question - Character Balance

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- Made by Feng, title edited by Accelevi

Re: Feng's Question - Character Balance

Postby Kitkat » Fri Feb 28, 2014 1:45 am

Well health kinda makes sense if you think about canon, since you'd need to actually penetrate deep enough into the nape of a titan for it to die, which is what the blades are made for. Like when they were training on the dummy titans, Eren noted that he needs to work on cutting deeper. Secondly, for Annie that's just to go with her skin hardening ability, but to make it possible that she's beaten (if it was exactly like in the anime she wouldn't be). But Colossal has health only for him to actually be a boss fight like you said, seeing as Eren had no problem getting him in one hit in the anime.

With my first point I do not mean that normal titan's should have health, even if it would make sense, just better to boost their AI.


Re: Feng's Question - Character Balance

Postby Wheaters » Fri Feb 28, 2014 3:42 am

Technically, Eren didn't cut CT, he shrunk before Eren could get the change.

Re: Feng's Question - Character Balance

Postby Fuginotory » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:27 am

No amount of AI enhancement will make you unable to spam techniques, unless it is overpowered to the point where getting near a titan kills you and there is nothing you can do about it (literally nothing). When the current AI first came out people were so overwhelmed that threads of the sort "How do you kill titans? started appearing and asking if it's even possible to beat them at that point. They were faster, they had better moves, and Abnormal runners were like homing missiles, after that people began to adjust to the speed and attacks, and created techniques to help them, thus slowly bringing the players to where they are now.

No, each titan should not be a boss, this is a game and it needs to be fun, not a ridiculously impossible horror fest of unbeatable enemies and underwhelming characters. If this is the kind of game you want to play "The
Impossible Game" not "Attack on Titan Tribute Game", making it annoying difficult is not a good way to make a game popular and fun.

Reeling whenever you want would be just plain and simply overpowered, it would be like Mikasa's IC, except it would take no skill to use, and it wouldn't cause you to lose your momentum, meaning that you would literally be able to just hook and scroll, you wouldn't even need gas anymore since reeling would not only be faster, but more cost efficient. This goes triple for modded clients who have the option to remap the reel to and bind it to a button, then just hold that button down all the time.

Canon did not turn into taboo, but if titans are made to match canon they will be so slow, that no matter how effective their attacks are, they just won't get you. Another thing is the fact that in canon the faster you are the easier it is to kill titans. Yes, going fast and killing titans with certain techniques is the canon, unlike the players of the game however, the characters in the show are too afraid to die if they mess up, so most just prefer to avoid fighting titans altogether. Don't believe me? Look at Levi, fastest 3DMG user, kills titans like they are nothing (3 in a row while defending the FT), uses the same move (technique) almost all the time. Look at Mikasa, faster than the Elite, killed more titans during the defense of Trost than some members in Levi's squad have killed in 5 years. In other words the only thing that stops the characters in the show from becoming super soldiers is the fear of the fact that if they die, they can't just hit "T" to try again.

One Eren per server is extremely pointless, no skilled players play Eren on servers and if any weaker team wants to abuse Eren's titan power, one Eren is more than enough. Another thing, why disable scores for servers with more than one Eren? What, someone hitting for 1000 points on a server with two Erens is less skilled than someone who does the same on a server with one Eren? Someone making 60000 points worth of score on a server with 2 Eren characters somehow ruins your game? Maybe you just have not noticed that Eren does not get any score in his titan form? (Note: Kill count is not score, it just tells you how many titans you killed, IMO that is the least important part of the entire scoreboard. Before you trash me for that last part, read the "IMO" part until you realise that this is my own personal opinion).

There is nothing subjective about "bad". A special is either useless or it is not, and quite frankly I could care less if it's rude to dismiss the most popular idea when it is so obviously useless. Too many popular ideas have made it into game only to be trashed by the same people who wanted them yesterday. If you want a good game you should focus more on what improves it, and less on what people think is cool (no, these two things are not the same). The whole Bow special idea is just bad, sorry Senpai, I know you think it would be cool, but it is. The whole sensing attacks idea is also bad, you can pretty much tell when a titan is about to attack you, no point in making a special that does the same. "It will tell you of attacks you don't see". Two major things wrong with that idea, that hit me right off the bat: One, Sasha is not Spider-Man, she doesn't have spider sense to warn her of danger, she just recognized the female titan's cry to be the same as that of a cornered animal and knew things were about to go bad, while watching the episode I recognized it in much the same way and knew things would go bad too, but I don't sense attacks. Two if I can't see an attack coming, it doesn't matter if something tells me it's coming, I most likely can't dodge it, and in a fight where a titan sneaks up on me from behind, chances are I won't be able to tell if the sense is warning me of the attacks that I see, or something coming from behind the camera. I know the point of the idea is to reflect on Sasha's intuition, but overall it wouldn't be very helpful in the actual game. Even if it was an ability that tells you titans are aggroing you it would still be unhelpful because any skilled player (or even unskilled player) should be able to tell if a titan is coming for him, especially with the footstep sounds. Obviously to present Feng with a list of useful and fun ideas you need to refer the community for ideas, than ask someone with common sense to help sort the good ones from the bad. If a bad idea is popular but can be fixed or tweaked to make it work, then do it, if not, scrap it and go with a less popular, but useful idea. Building and balancing the game should not be done via popularity contest alone.

About the health system for titans. I can see how such a function could be fun, but I can also see how it can be annoying. Having the option to turn it on or off in your server, or single player game, would indeed be good, generally the more customizable the difficulty is, the more fun the game can be, but if it is mandatory it would be more annoying than fun IMO, especially for new players.

Re: Feng's Question - Character Balance

Postby Arise7 » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:26 pm

Last time i checked only one Eren per server is already allowed, also Eren is a good character so i have no idea why everyone is hating on him all of a sudden. The reason why people don't like using him is because people like bragging about their score and his special actually is counter-productive to that.

Re: Feng's Question - Character Balance

Postby Fuginotory » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:12 pm

No, they want to limit Eren to one per server, not allow one.

Re: Feng's Question - Character Balance

Postby Sylvy » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:39 pm

I think what fugi is trying to say is that "Eren should not be locked to only one per server". Correct?

From his paragraph about eren in that long block of text up there, it seems like that's what he's trying to say at least....

and I agree. It's not fair that only on person gets to play as him per server.
BUT he needs a special modification IF this were the case.
Because of his OP special, I'd suggest the special either have a much longer cool down time, or limit it to only once per life or even once per game.

Re: Feng's Question - Character Balance

Postby Accelevi » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:06 pm

Why should Eren ever be allowed more than once a server.

And since we don't perma die, instead, AI boosts is our best route.

Anyways, HP based off difficulty would work best, toggle doesn't really have a point.
It would be low on normal, medium on hard, and high on abnormal. Or perhaps the other way around to make up for the difficulties of the Titans in each respective level difficulty. IDK.

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Re: Feng's Question - Character Balance

Postby Horseface » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:57 pm

Makoto wrote:It would be low on normal, medium on hard, and high on abnormal.

This way around would be preferable in my opinion. The whole idea was suggested in various threads before, but I'm just intruding here to say that i believe titan hp is one of the BEST ways to make this game harder, and (probably) one of the easiest to implement, too! I really can't think of any potential change as significant as titan HP!
Just imagine how the game would be like if, for example, every titan on Hard mode had HP ranging from 600 to 1000 (from smallest to tallest titan)!
It would be a completely different and much better and-
Whatever, i think you guys know what i mean. ^^
It's really the nr.2 of important changes that i hope for, (nr.1 is a kick option :J)

Re: Feng's Question - Character Balance

Postby Fuginotory » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:02 pm

Like I said, it can be fun, but also annoying, and more customizable difficulty is always better.
There is really no point in limiting Eren on servers, most people don't play him, and if they want to abuse his titan power then one Eren is more than enough. The only thing you achieve by limiting Eren is removing the chance of some group grabbing all Eren to go and have some titan mashing fun (I know you don't understand how people can have fun with an easy fight, but trust me, that's just you). Aside from that, a toggle for this just makes the game more newbie friendly. Anyway, the topic was character balance, not difficulty, so I'll not go into any more details on this.

There is really no need to increase Eren's cooldown, and there is no need to limit it to one use per life/game, if you do limit it that way he would need to have really good stats for the complete lack of special for the most part of the game, and you'll also need to increase the time he stays a titan, otherwise it would simply be unfair.

I don't think you guys should be focusing so much on what someone, somewhere might do with Eren, and there is no need to nerf/limit the character just because of that someone, somewhere.

Edit: 1000 HP for titans? More tasteless jokes I see. Ever noticed how titans are killed with one hit in the show? 400 is the maximum that makes sense, anything above that would be outright annoying (even if it is a toggle).

Re: Feng's Question - Character Balance

Postby Kitkat » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:02 pm

Wheaters wrote:Technically, Eren didn't cut CT, he shrunk before Eren could get the change.

No. He cut the CT, and its nape pushed him away with steam, you could clearly hear his blade hit. Eren thought he hadn't done it so he went for it again, and the CT vanished in titan smoke. The titan smoke was from the body decomposing and whoever controlled it used that to get away without being seen, just like Annie did when she had the titans eat hers.

And I think Eren shouldn't be allowed more than once on a server, everyone having the special would make things too easy, that goes without saying. Unless everyone wants two versions of Eren, one with the ability to shift and another that has a different special, though this is pointless imo since the special everyone wants from his is the titan, and his stats aren't that great.


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