Realism vs Gameplay Features

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- Made by Feng, title edited by Accelevi

Re: Realism vs Gameplay Features

Postby Miracle » Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:26 pm

Dodge can pretty much evade every titan's attack including the 3 slap and even Annie's attack, provided that you are on the ground and know what you are doing.

The same apply to gas burst except that you can perform it in air (basically means anytime). Well, unless you are in the middle of titan's crowd with jumper, or new titan ai include titan's dashing, you can always just gas burst away from the titan when the situation gone grim, thus the 100% escape. All you need is a little practice, just like how critical reel can be used to dodge jumper in air currently.
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Re: Realism vs Gameplay Features

Postby Accelevi » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:51 pm

Air burst/dodge would be way too strong.
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Re: Realism vs Gameplay Features

Postby Terramort » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:33 pm

Jesus Accelevi, just go play some other games for a little bit, and learn how to keep things *in context*.

Air Dodge, added, by itself, with no use of gas, and a 100 foot burst in any direction at reel speeds - yes, it would be overpowered.

But that doesn't need to be the case. What are the most broken things in Titan right now?

1. Ghost Hooks 2. A fat mix mix of crawlers and various sized jumpers 3. A fat mix of similar-sized Titans 4. Surprise rape-you-at-any-angle jumpers 5. Getting stuck on a Titan, and running off causes you to do that stupid little flip where you can't gas/cable..

A small, 5-10 foot gas burst using up 1/8th of your gas would HELP alleviate these problems - Ghost Hooks: A bit of correction when you should have safely latched to a neck. Crawlers: A way to keep your elevation constant without stupid flips/wall runs sending you into jump range and a way to burst off the wall. Jumpers: A way to dodge in-air. Many like-sized Titans: A way to get away from the neck without getting stuck in a wall run/getting Titan-Fued.

If anyone, ANYONE could even halfway reliably make it to wave 20, I'd agree that maybe new 3DMG abilities are lower on the list than Titan AI, but NO ONE can beat Wave 20 with any sort of regularity at all. That says to me that something needs fixing, so instead of removing things from the game, add a way to deal with it.

When you can make it to Wave 20 on your own, or even with a friend or 2, then maybe you'll be in a position to say, "No, I'm good enough to beat this game without X improvement, you guys can do it too, and it's fun!" instead of pointlessly talking about how OP a possible idea is (because no idea ever can be toned down?)
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Re: Realism vs Gameplay Features

Postby Senpai » Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:37 pm

Miracle wrote:Dodge can pretty much evade every titan's attack including the 3 slap and even Annie's attack, provided that you are on the ground and know what you are doing.

The same apply to gas burst except that you can perform it in air (basically means anytime). Well, unless you are in the middle of titan's crowd with jumper, or new titan ai include titan's dashing, you can always just gas burst away from the titan when the situation gone grim, thus the 100% escape. All you need is a little practice, just like how critical reel can be used to dodge jumper in air currently.


miracle
>implying this is a bad thing, Feng made that intentional, one of his beta testers even showed it to him, and was the one who started.
the whole dodge annie's three slap combo, because that's kind of what a game does, you find out how to beat the enemies, then win.

>implying jumpers can't be dodged, if jumpers couldn't be dodged they'ed be OP, in the anime if they couldn't be dodged it would be GG for anyone.


Gas burst would be fun, and add a lot more things to do with the 3DMG.

Just have titan normal difficulty be able to dodge jumpers with gas burst, and for hard and/or abnormal just have them have like a second to dodge with only one burst since apparently that's fun/balanced/realistic etc.

Edit: I'm pretty sure everyone can agree current hard mode should be called normal, and current normal called easy.

then make a better hard more/abnormal mode.

*sarcasm intensfies*
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Re: Realism vs Gameplay Features

Postby Skirazi » Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:43 pm

Terramort wrote:If anyone, ANYONE could even halfway reliably make it to wave 20, I'd agree that maybe new 3DMG abilities are lower on the list than Titan AI, but NO ONE can beat Wave 20 with any sort of regularity at all.

I can reliably make it halfway to wave 20. On Normal. :lol:

I personally would love a Gas Burst move 'cause the 3DMG is far too fun to play around with, and more cool things would be great. There are a couple of issues with what you described, though:

One, Titans ARE far too easy rn. In an ideal world, IMO, Titans on Normal difficulty would be where the Anime's at. Then, there's less difficult and more difficult modes. This is nowhere near the case, and even Abnormal mode's relatively simple for the higher-level players. A game where this is the case would definitely have to include better 3DMG moves such as Gas Burst, but when people are going Levi-mode and killing 15 titans a minute on hard, there's little reason for it to be added in.

Two, you're arguing that a Multiplayer game (the default setting being for 4 players, btw) should be completed by a single person or, at maximum, 2 or 3. Something seems a little off, no?

Three, adding Gas Burst to avoid fixing other, more prominent issues like Ghost Hooking is bad design and downright lazy too. If issues are going to happen anyway, people will complain regardless of if there's a way to bypass it or not. And once the issues are fixed, Gas Burst is going to be quite pointlessly OP, just as Accel pointed out. I guess it would just be a matter of nerfing it, but frankly I doubt that go well with most of the playerbase.

Don't get me wrong, I've already said Gas Burst would be a great addition to the game. It's just that in the state of the game right now, adding it would just be a mistake that we'd regret.
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Re: Realism vs Gameplay Features

Postby Senpai » Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:01 pm

My biggest gripe with the "balancing" of gas burst is that the way miracle/add describe it would serve very little purpose, and generally not be fun to use.
It sounds like just nerfing it to it's absolute worst it can be, just for the sake of not having any possibility of being OP.

When really if you get good at using any skill/move shouldn't you get rewarded? Like the FT dodge hand atk or generally dodging titans with dodge.

time it right, you live. if dodge couldn't dodge titan atks then why would it be in the game?


Also I made this diffculty scale of gas burst.

scaling
easy (the current normal we have) 6 bursts, no one takes normal seriously.

normal (the current hard we have) 4 bursts, this is a decent amount, good that the tank is 25% usage each time you use gas burst.

hard (new mode that's harder than hard we have in game) 1-2 ounce of prevention will apply stronger here.

abnormal (abnormal mode with most ridicoulous unrealistcally hard ai, that we don't have yet) 0, you were merely adopted by the sky, but the jumpers were born in it.


I also added in new difficulties and bumped down current hard and normal, note this list assumes levunny's ai thread gets used decently to counter gas burst.
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Re: Realism vs Gameplay Features

Postby Terramort » Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:06 am

I do agree that there are many priorities over gas bursting. As for thinking 1 or 2 people should be able to beat Wave 20 - ehhh, I'd like if it were very, very hard to do solo, but right now, it's nearly impossible. If it's not meant to beaten, then make it infinite waves (as any horde wave mode should have). It it has a definite end, make it possible for the majority of the *best* players to get there alone. No, don't make it easy. No, don't make beatable with a week of playing. No, make it so people like Crysiez and others can finish wave 20 ~50% of the time. Yes, I know that takes lots of little changes over time, and yes, I know the first few changes won't fix it - but that's the point of beta testing a game, to get TO that level of well-refined that is fun for both new and veteran players alike.
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Re: Realism vs Gameplay Features

Postby Accelevi » Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:29 am

1. Air dodge is just hell no.
2. Air burst is still ridiculous, and it would still reasonably have to take like 1/3-1/2 the total gas to balance it somewhat, and maybe a 75-100 feetish blast, depending on character (speed/etc).
3. Ghost hooks aren't a reason for gas burst, that's just a bug that needs to be fixed.
4. If you can't handle crawlers/jumpers as they are, you still wouldn't be able to handle them with burst, because by all means, they need to get a lot stronger as well, to balance it with the new tech, and you would need to perfectly time the burst, or you'd still die.
5. 1/8 of your gas for 5-10 feet is way too little gas requirement, and there's no way in hell that should be able to dodge anything related to Titans (attacks/jumps/grabs/etc).
6. For the last time, bugs aren't reasons for new features, they just need to be fixed. Going off your logic, what happens when bug's fixed? Do we remove those features? I'd bet (insert random item here) that you'd disagree with removing it then.
7. Guess what? I don't need to be a pro to recognize some stuff's ridiculous, because I've played this game for long enough and I understand it well enough, but I don't bother with all the playing, and thus am not a pro.
8. ffs why should there ever be a way to just *flip* and roll away from the BOSS' - out of any possible target - attack? Annie/CT is ridiculous anyways, they're laughably bad imitations that people can solo without breaking a sweat, once you get the general gist.
9. Jumpers are, and for all rights, should be near practically undodgeable. The only way they should be dodgeable is if you are already hooked to something, and can instantly reel at that moment - you should not have time to swing/start preparing to reel, this would only work if you're already in a position to reel - or by timing the gas burst utterly perfectly, anything even a hair off from a small window (maybe 3/4 of a second?) should result in death.
10. Titans are ridiculously easy, and anime Titans are so ridiculously, far, far, far, far, far ahead in difficulty from this game it's not even funny anymore. To compare, a Titan from anime, and a Titan from the game is sort of like comparing god to a human, the gap is just ridiculous.
11. Why the hell would, and why the hell SHOULD people be able to solo ANY multiplayer level? They should be MP, and made impossible to beat on solo, unless you're Jesus or something. FT/CT is supposed to be unbeatable solo, and there's no reason why anyone could possibly reasonably make it through 20 waves of Titan hordes, but in this game, it's ridiculous, most people can get pretty far through Normal, and get through around 8-10 on Hard, and Abnormal players (the experienced ones) can do it pretty well too, if I remember correctly.
12. You should be rewarded for doing good, but you guys make the set the bar for good ridiculously low. And we're not making it the worst it can be, you guys are making it laughably, ridiculous, overpowered.
13. Also, just being able to dodge-roll past any Titan's attacks in basically any other difficulty than Normal should be impossible, and makes no sense, and is ridiculous.
14. Easy could be 5 bursts, Normal is 4 bursts, Hard is 3 bursts, and Abnormal is 2 bursts. And by this I mean like on Easy, it would take 20% of the total. Not however much you have left. On Abnormal for example, 50% of the Total. If you have less than however much you need, and try to use, unless you're like practically empty, it should shoot you a little, but then completely wreck your balance and send you crash-landing, with 0 gas whatsoever into the nearest thing, and you'd be helpless.
15. There's no reason to make it infinite. And people like Cryzies/Tiny/Gun/etc should be the kind of people that can make it to maybe like Wave 8-10 at most, out of 20, on Hard. The rest of the normal playerbase (who are still experienced) should struggle to make it even past like 4-5. Newbies would have to play on lower difficulties. There's no damn reason why MULTIPLAYER should be able to be solo'd.
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Re: Realism vs Gameplay Features

Postby Terramort » Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:57 am

1 & 2 - Air Dodge/Air Burst/Gas Boost/Magical Jetpack-like-dodge-Levi-does, whatever, all the same effect.

2 - A 100 foot blast WOULD be OP, since you could just fly as far as your cable shoots with one button press. That is NOT what is wanted. What is wanted a tiny, controlled bursts than can give you that extra inch or so you need to live, *exactly the same as ground dodging*. A fast attack is still gonna hit you. An unseen attack is still gonna get you. Hell, a big floppy Deviant is gonna land on you if you don't see it coming.

3 - Agreed, but there are other annoyances/bugs that gas boosting can help alleviate until those bugs are fixed and a better AI is added to compensate.

4 - Yes, exactly. "If you can't handle them without burst, you can't handle with." Yes, YES! That's what we want, not something OP, but a tool to use.

5 - 1/8th is too little for 5-10 feet? You can't even travel as far as your cable can shoot if you blow you ENTIRE tank on gas boosting. You could use it 3, maybe 4 times effectively, otherwise, your are forcing way too many refills on yourself and your allies will get all the kills. Remember, gas boosting will ONLY help you stay alive, not kill Titans faster.

6 - When bugs are fixed so 3DMG feels powerful again, it's time to improve Titan AI. It's a 3 step thing - add new AI, make gear capable of dealing with new AI, fix bugs, add new AI to deal with fixed bugs/gear, add new characters/specials/stuff to deal with Titans, buff the Titan AI, add more tweaks to allow more adaptability in the gear, etc. etc. It should never reach the point of "well, increasing this make X better, and Y needs to balance X, so NEVER INCREASE X AGAIN"

8 - The bosses are laughable. Period. They either A.) Destroy you because you try and actually play the game or B.) Get wiped because they have easy exploits. That's bad game design. It should be that skill is required to beat the bosses, not a very specific, cheap attack. The Boss matches should be fun, fast paced, and hard (but not stupid cheap), instead of how they are currently cheesy, grueling, and insanely easy once you know the exploits.

9 - Dodging jumpers within double their height, I agree, should be damn near undodgable. However, when I am above the trees on forest and see a 3 meter jumper leap over 10 stories to bite me - yes, I do feel that I should have the right to counter an unmissable attack. But this goes back to Jumpers being OP - they don't have be heavily toned down if a way to counter them (to an extent) is added.

10 - And THAT is because of HP. Go ahead and download one of the older mods, and turn on HP, and see how far you make it in Forest Waves. All of a sudden, you actually dread fighting the 15 meters and appreciate some easy, tiny-Titan kills. Fall damage also has a lot to do with this - if nobody took fall damage in AoT, they would't have to stay anchored to dangerous Titans and die.

11 - Back to this: If it's meant to be unbeatable, give it infinite waves. It it's not, give the players the tools they need to win. Otherwise it's a big cheap fest - "Yeah, there's an end, but the game cheats to make sure you can't win" = total lame-fest, and ruins games (i.e. Battle Subway in pokemon). What you want is something like Black Ops Zombies ("duuude! I made it to wave 30 today! Wonder how far I can go next time!" instead of "God fucking dammit. Fucking again? So close. I'm fucking done with this stupid ass cheating game, been playing for 4 months and can't wave 20")

12 - Huh?

13 - Agreed, I suppose. You shouldn't be able to "just dodge roll past any attack", that'd be a bit cheap.

14 - Disagree about the Set numbers for boosting, but I wouldn't mind seeing say, 150% gas on Normal and 200% on Easy for total gas starting amounts. The idea about boostfailing when low on gas is good. I like it.

15 - You keep getting hung up on the "Multiplayer" word. The problem is, that's a very arbitrary thing. It's only MP because Feng decided that nobody plays alone, ever, or offline, ever. It's just like any current game - almost all MP maps/modes can be played SP, and vice-versa. Feng should quit trying to make a distinction between Solo and MP games, and just allow any map to be any mod and opened to MP.
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Re: Realism vs Gameplay Features

Postby Accelevi » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:15 am

See, bugs aren't any sort of reason for new features. Just deal with em instead of trying to add up new stuff which would break the game, just for that one thing, and would require all sorts of other work as well.
Alright, I step back on that. 1/8 for 5-10 feet works. But there's no way in hell that would be far enough to dodge anything. You'd need at least near 20-30 feet. Which would be why it would take roughly 1/4-1/3 of your total gas per burst.
See, just fix the bugs first, and then we're happy, then add the AI boost which we need anyways at this moment, then maybe later, add the gas boost, and then another AI boost on top of that together to help it. It never has to go to the point of never increasing X. Just increase Y by leaps and bounds for every small step X takes, if we're acting as X is some super OP benefit, which gas burst is.
See, while I don't like it, there will always be exploits. The point would be to make those exploits near pointless and/or ridiculously hard to even attempt, and then boost skill, and make it take skill to beat. And no, even people who play jokingly can crush bosses without exploits, people who play seriously and know what they're doing, it's practically boring I'd guessay. And bosses are ALMOST stupid-cheap, and stuff like that needs to be evident. And fast-paced is good, but a boss battle should take quite a while, not as fast as it's done right now. And grueling is perfectly fine.
See, don't add some goddamn burst to counter insane jump. Just reduce it to 3x their own height, and make all jumpers like 8m or under. This would force us to fly higher, instead of lower, which is what we currently do. And there's no reason they can't do a small hop and nip us right above the head.
See, any sort of decently experienced player, would still rather be able to take on HP. If I remember correctly, it was what, 1000-1500ish for the tallest? For the more experienced players I see and know, that's not too much of a challenge, and for small ones, they could freeform/Tiny cutorslashorwhateveritiswhocaresidont/Long distance equatororsparrowwhatever it.
Fall damage is also a good point. Along with it, collision damage.
> Back to this
If it's gonna be undefeatable, make it more difficult, exponentially so as the waves increase, make the pace forced faster, etc. Don't just put infinite waves. See, this way, there's still an actual end. Meaning, people will strive for it. Meaning, people who GET BETTER WILL BE ABLE TO CLEAR ALL 20 IN TIME. But right now, with the level of challenge it is, it needs to be boosted until basically all the top/elite level players at the moment would struggle past like 8-10. And from there on, people could keep working. See it?
> I've been playing for 4 months and can't wave 20
Well guess what, it shouldn't be that easy. It would take continuous, continuous practice, and those who could actually clear all 20 would be basically the SnK Universe's God of War or whatever. Bishamon or something. whatever
12, I was replying to someone else I think.
13, see, thanks.
14, So like starting out with more gas? Then Jean + Easy = 4x? lol, the amount of high damages people could get would be insane.
See, MP is there. So is SP. SP is built for SP. If you need more challenge (not that there is any), then use higher difficulties. For MORE CHALLENGE THAT'S BUILT TO BE TACKLED WITH OTHERS AND SHOULD BE PRACTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE BY YOURSELF (Wave 4+ would be a huge milestone basically on solo), THEN THAT'S MP.
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